{"id":216,"date":"2005-06-07T21:05:25","date_gmt":"2005-06-08T04:05:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/x.jimanddoni.com\/?p=216"},"modified":"2005-06-07T21:53:15","modified_gmt":"2005-06-08T04:53:15","slug":"216","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/?p=216","title":{"rendered":"Erik Erik Erik…"},"content":{"rendered":"

Sigh??????<\/p>\n

Well, I purposefully didn???t list Erik???s email address and website but as he posted a comment including his address, it would seem he is open for conversation. Therefore, I will give him due credit for his blog posting written about me and post a link to it for your reading enjoyment. Click here<\/strong><\/a> for it.<\/p>\n

I was not going to respond to this particular element of debate because quite honestly, I try to pick my battles wisely and in truth engaging in this conversation is just not a good use of my time. However, since Erik has submitted a portion of his argument on my site, I figure that my web readers will be interested in my opinion on what he had to say so I will indulge this a bit longer.<\/p>\n

In response to ???The Price of Fame??? post, Erik commented:<\/p>\n

“Hi everyone. I think Robin Gilliam states well half of the ethical dilemna experienced by those who believe these embryos are human life,<\/p>\n

???NO ONE can ignore that embryo adoption is a life-saving choice for these embryos.???<\/p>\n

The other half is that the best medical technology today can bring to term less than 1\/3 of cryo-preserved embros, yet it???s reasonable to believe that a decade or two out, technology will allow nearly 100% of those same embryos to come to full term.<\/p>\n

If one believes these embryos are people with rights like you and I, attempting IVF with them now is playing russian roulette with human lives in order to save – today – less than 1 out of three of them.
\nIt seems to me any ???rescue mission??? ought be put off as technology improves.<\/p>\n

As I said in my original post reproduced by Donni, I don???t find third-party IVF immoral at all, what people do in this arena is their own business, however given the choice, my ethics would compell me to adopt a breathing baby who needs a home over a cluster of cells that needs a womb. “<\/em><\/p>\n

Erik ??? I find it very interesting that a person who claims to be pro-choice (pro-abortion), and who claims that an embryo is simply a cluster of cells, is now the person that is trying to educate me on how best to give these tiny humans the most optimal opportunity to reach their next stage of development and survive to birth. The irony of that is not lost on me!.<\/p>\n

To address the issue though???<\/p>\n

First let me go back to what Heidi said (in her comments on Erik???s site) ??? <\/p>\n

“You suggest that we should make a stand that science get its act together. Well, actually, I believe that is exactly what Doni and other snowflake families are speaking with their lives and their recent trip to Washington. But they are asking for it in a different way than you are. They don’t want science to continue experimentation to learn to freeze properly or grow more children in a lab – as this particular science is performed KNOWING many children will be lost (destroyed, killed) in the process (just as embryonic stem cell research kills as well). Rather, they ask science to be more responsible, more ethical, and protective of life. Finding homes for the many frozen children is a definite start in the right direction… reducing the number of children to be frozen in the future is another step in the right direction… freezing none, using invitro to create only as many as will be planted in the womb at the time of the procedure, and finding homes for all the remaining frozen embryos could come close to solving the problem altogether.”<\/em><\/p>\n

We (and for the moment I will defend Heidi and I as the ???we???) <\/em>believe that science has already gone TOO far. We would completely disagree that the way out of this mess is to proceed further into this technological nightmare that has no regard for human life.<\/p>\n

Further, you have created a very ideological straw man here. We live in the land of what ???is??? not what ???if???. We don???t have the luxury to sit back and hope the future can improve upon the process. Why?<\/p>\n

1.\tThe embryos likely do not have that much time. When we testified in Wisconsin in 2001, scientists on the other side of the debate testified that cryopreserved embryos begin to be compromised after the 3 year mark. As a point of fact, Tanner was frozen 3 years four months and he obviously survived but 10 others didn???t. Did the cryopreservation time frame play into this? I don???t know but based on what I heard scientists testify to ??? they cannot be indefinitely cryopreserved without compromise.<\/p>\n

2.\tI have lost faith in this science. They are proving that they will not do what is in the best interest of the embryos. Let???s not pretend that their attempts to increase their life span is really about their conscience in a life saving endeavor. There would be very little evidence that scientists growing embryos are doing this in reverence to the life of the embryo.<\/p>\n

3.\tYou are making an assumption of which you have NO scientific evidence. I would not place my child???s future in the hands of someone with an ???idea???.<\/p>\n

I could go on and on???.<\/p>\n

Also, I think we need to look a little closer at what you actually said. Your comment on my site was the very condensed version. You said something else that was very relevant to this conversation and I think my audience needs to know where you were going with this:<\/p>\n

???In the future, we may be able to grow those same embryos into people completely in the lab with 100% assurance.???<\/em><\/p>\n

This statement is horrifying to me Erik. This time allow me the luxury to recap what I believe you have said:<\/p>\n

1.\tYou are pro-choice
\n2.\tAn embryo is simply a cluster of cells (Erik – you may consider reading this <\/a><\/strong>article on the state of an embryo. It was written by an Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, currently conducting research on the regeneration of embryonic and adult neurons following spinal cord injury).<\/em>
\n3.\tYour system of morality is quite different than mine.
\n4.\tYou believe the real solution may be to keep babies out of women???s wombs entirely and grow them in a lab until birth.
\n5.\tYou believe science may improve upon this process by 100% – no losses of life. That is quite a statement you made. Even God does not allow embryos to survive to term 100% of the time by HIS choice. I can???t speak for His reasons (obviously) but my Dr.s told me that woman miscarry 25% of all known pregnancies and the number is signifcantly higher when you factor in the miscarriage of children prior to their mama???s knowledge of them.<\/p>\n

Seems to me that based on what you have written you believe everyone failed. You very clearly stated that I failed (lest we forget the ???uterus of death??? comment). <\/em>Now you have insinuated that women in general have failed and you believe that science may ensure an 100% live birth rate if children are tube grown. From this I must conclude that you also believe God failed. His design was imperfect and you have a better idea. (If you do not believe in God than I am admittedly off on this point???you wouldn???t believe a creator could fail if one doesn???t exist???I won???t go there though!)<\/em><\/p>\n

For the benefit of my audience I would now reference the biblical story of Babel. Genesis chaper 11 details the men who intended to build a tower to heaven and God???s response. The issue wasn???t the tower. The issue was the heart of the men who would not bow to God. They had a better plan. They knew a better way. They were going to raise the bar of the human condition and succeed the great Creator in intellegince. I believe God gives us knowledge and intellegince and intends for us to use it. He also expects us to use that intellegence wisely and ethically in accordance with the guidelines He has given us.<\/p>\n

What Erik has said here raises alarms for me. To quote Jeff Goldbloom in Jurassic Park ???It isn???t about whether or not we can! Did anyone stop long enough to consider whether or not we should????<\/em><\/p>\n

Erik ??? you may believe that you are safest in the hands of an advancing technological age. I do not. I will seek my comfort in the arms of the Master Creator. Science is likely going to make a bigger mess. Ultimately, it is God who will fix this. <\/p>\n

Note to my readers: If you choose to comment directly to Erik either via his site or mine, I would ask that while you are submitting your honest heart felt thoughts that you also try diligently to treat Erik with kindness and respect. Erik and I differ in our beliefs and I doubt we would agree on much but I would have to remove a posting if it was diragatory. Let???s practice compassion.<\/p>\n

To those who already posted: I new I couldn???t keep you from googling! When reading your responses I was humbled. Thank you for how you love me and my family.<\/em><\/p>\n

Doni<\/p>\n

P.S. I realize that my rebuttal will be rather insignificant to Erik because we are coming at this conversation from a diametrically opposed system of belief. Therefore, this was not written for his benefit but for my web readers who seem to, by in large, share my basic beliefs.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Sigh?????? Well, I purposefully didn???t list Erik???s email address and website but as he posted a comment including his address, it would seem he is open for conversation. Therefore, I will give him due credit for his blog posting written about me and post a link to it for your reading enjoyment. Click here for […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[55],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-216","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-mamas-diaries"],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/216","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=216"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/216\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=216"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=216"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jimanddoni.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=216"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}